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RE: Header design for Y-blocks

jepito — Sun, 09 May 2010 07:19:54 GMT

A few things i have read, found at the track, and learned on the chassis dyno.

Its better to be a little big than a too small
Tri Y will have a broad torque curve, 4-1 makes the most peak power.
primary lengths should be equal.
the collector on a 4-1 should have a cone in the center of the primaries to help flow together as smooth as possible.
If exhaust temp changes then size/length may need to be changed. You are tuning a sound wave that is traveling though the exhaust gases. The speed of sound changes when the density of the air changes.
If you can't fit the ideal primary length then you can run 1/2 or 1/3 length. If 1/2 length you will be "in tune" twice in the rpm range, but with 1/2 the effect. this broadens the power range, but with less peak.
A straight through muffler will make more power than an intrusive one, even if the straight through is longer. Made 10hp more with an 18" super trap(with no baffle) than with a 4" shoenfeld. the super trap was also quieter.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

mctim64 — Fri, 07 May 2010 12:19:59 GMT

Charlie, your tastes are wide and varied to be sure. ;)

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Fri, 07 May 2010 11:47:08 GMT

[quote][b]charliemccraney (3/17/2010)[/b][hr]

The Pantera is on my list of cars to own one day. That, a Ferrari 308, a Porsche 914, and, the expensive one that I may never be able to afford, a Bugatti T57SC Atlantic. Other than that, I imagine it will be customs and hot rods.[/quote]

Why does my taste have to be so expensive?

[url=http://auto.freedomblogging.com/2010/05/06/ultra-rare-bugatti-could-be-worlds-most-expensive-car/33593/]http://auto.freedomblogging.com/2010/05/06/ultra-rare-bugatti-could-be-worlds-most-expensive-car/33593/[/url]

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Y block Billy — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:49:53 GMT

Hmmm! Lots to think about here, I'm very curious as to the outcome of the header testing, paitently awaiting results.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

57FordPU — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:45:36 GMT

[quote]Charlie,
After thinking about it, maybe the headers are the reason you didn't see any improvement last year with the new engine. Perhaps they are at their limit. [/quote]

Charlie Mc,

You are very perceptive. Tim is just finishing a third new 258" Y for the brick. Today we discussed more chassis dyno runs and one of the comparisons will be different headers. Perhaps we will make Jerry C smile after all (remember, he wants me to toss these Sandersons).

Ted's research will be closely scrutinized as well. Headers are one of the last frontiers that we have explored and perhaps we have had our priorities a little out of line. We will share any new positive data.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

John Mummert — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:03:54 GMT

Barry: The 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" headers I described were 4 tube step headers into a single collector. I think they worked okay because they were too short to really be "tuned" to any particular RPM during our dyno testing of 3000-6200. These headers showed quite a few peaks and valleys in the power curve but they were very small. When we tried a set of long tube headers there were fewer peaks and valleys but they were more pronounced.

Regarding the Hedman style headers, they were 1-1/2" tri Y style that fit in a T-Bird. I think the flat top exhaust manifolds would have just as well.

It seems that headers with 26-30" primary tubes will be tuned to RPM levels above 7000RPM so probably won't work well for street engines.

Regarding flanges a local engineer named Jim Feuling used to make headers with a large oval cone that mated the flange to the primary tube with large end welded to the flange. His theory was that the exhaust would shoot right past the mismatch, but it would prevent reversion at low RPM.

I just did a quick search on the web for Jim Feuling anti reversion exhaust and found some interesting things. His later design went in-line in the primary tube.

Food for thought!

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

BIGREDTODD — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:23:25 GMT

[quote][b]John Mummert (3/17/2010)[/b][hr]The Hedman style T-Bird headers took a 339HP engine down to around 295HP[/quote]

John,

What were the primary tube sizes on these headers? Was that a contributing factor?

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:56:45 GMT

[quote][b]MarkMontereyBay (3/17/2010)[/b][hr]Hmmm....I am sitting here looking at the 1 1/2" ports on the Sanderson shorties I just purchased. Mine is a stock 57 312 other than MSD/Petronix and a newer Holley 4bbl. I am not sure these are any better than the 57 stock manifolds or worse.[/quote]

If they're anything like the truck headers they produce, they must be good for about 300hp based on Charlie's experience. They're probably fine for your 312.

Charlie,
After thinking about it, maybe the headers are the reason you didn't see any improvement last year with the new engine. Perhaps they are at their limit.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

569104 — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:46:32 GMT

Charlie,

I'm not even close to knowledgeable in this field but this thread has prompted a lot of reading. So, in attempt to help answer the tubing size issue, I found this from the Burns Stainless web site, part 4 of a 5 part series on welding headers. It can be found under their Technology header...

"So, when fitting the header pipe at the head, it is critical that the exhaust pipe be either “port-fit,” or slightly larger (0.030” or less) than the exhaust port for proper flow. The top of the port is the most critical section as this is typically the place of highest gas velocity during blowdown. It is best that the header tube be oriented parallel to the top of the port. Also, we prefer that the transition from the port to the primary tube be as smooth as possible over at least the top 90 degrees. Some header builders prefer the “step” at the port reasoning that the step will minimize back-flow or reversion. If this method is employed, the step should only be used at the bottom of the port."...

Also, from all my reading it appears for the RPM ranges most common to "street engines" the longer 36" primary tubes would be prefered. If you have the room.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

MarkMontereyBay — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:44:32 GMT

Hmmm....I am sitting here looking at the 1 1/2" ports on the Sanderson shorties I just purchased. Mine is a stock 57 312 other than MSD/Petronix and a newer Holley 4bbl. I am not sure these are any better than the 57 stock manifolds or worse.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:30:11 GMT

Then will a 1 3/4" header be ok to use for the street in the case of the Y? Does porting affect the tube size requirements? I've also discovered that tube sizes larger than 1 5/8" will result in a port which is larger than the hole in commonly available gaskets, which means that in many cases it will be larger than the port in the head. Is this of any concern?

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Barry L — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:00:54 GMT

John Not quite following what you mean on the tube lengths. Are you describing a tri-y style where two cylinders use up to 20 inch(1 3/4) tubes, into one larger tube(1 7/8 or 2) of 36 inches long. Followed by the next two cylinders,20 in . primaries into larger 36 tube....and finally the two 36 inch tubes join at a collector??? I hope I haven't lost you with my Polak description. Barry L

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

John Mummert — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:20:06 GMT

We did some dyno testing a while back with exhaust manifolds. Both the Ramhorns and 57-later flat top manifolds with 2-1/4" head pipes made 290HP. The same engine made around 350HP with short 1-3/4" - 1-7/8" fenderwells that Jerry Christenson built.

The Hedman style T-Bird headers took a 339HP engine down to around 295HP

With regard to design: I have found from a lot flow bench testing that the Y-Block exhaust port is seriously hurt by any tube smaller than 1-3/4". The problem seems to be that the exhaust exits in uncontrolled multiple paths. I call it a scatter-gun. It appears that the large tube is needed to bring the multiple streams back into a single stream.

Regarding length: a very short header can work very well. The primary tubes need to be 20" or less. From there I believe that the tubes should be 36"+. The short headers seem to be too short to create standing waves while the longer headers take advantage of tuned waves. I think that lengths in between are long enough to be tuned but to an RPM that is outside the normal operating range of a Y-Block.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:51:31 GMT

The 180 degree concept, isn't that a tri-Y design?

The Pantera is on my list of cars to own one day. That, a Ferrari 308, a Porsche 914, and, the expensive one that I may never be able to afford, a Bugatti T57SC Atlantic. Other than that, I imagine it will be customs and hot rods.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Hollow Head — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:39:25 GMT

DeTomaso Pantera 180 deg exhaust manifolds as mentioned in previous link. Hard to fit, but...

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

569104 — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:43:25 GMT

Here is another link to some header theory.

http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm

Also,

Does anyone have experience with Speedway Motors chassis headers for Y-Block F100's. If anyone has a set of these they can donate to the dyno cause I know I would be interested in the results. I'm sure Charlie would be too.

Thanks,

Greg

ps. This is my first post here....fantastic site. I have two 1956 F100's. One big window and one small window. Both Y-blocks!

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Ted — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:43:39 GMT

Kenny. If it’s not too much trouble, do drop your headers off at my shop while you’re passing through. I’ll include them in the test.

Mark. Thanks for the offer but it appears that I’ll not need your particular set of headers at this time. I have a set of headers already here that should be representative of yours.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

MarkMontereyBay — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:23:22 GMT

Ted,

I just got a set of Sanderson shorties for my 57 Tbird. I won't be able to install them for at least a couple months the way things are going here. I don't expect they would flow very well as the are small and made for the tight fit in a 57 Tbird. I can ship them to you for the test if you like and then get them back after you are finished. They are bare metal, not chromed or coated. I intend on painting them when I do the install. Let me know and give me your shipping address, etc. if you want them.

Mark Hebard

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

62galxe — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:39:41 GMT

Ted if you want to test my short reds truck headers let me know. I have a couple days next week ill be passing by waco.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Ted — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:29:35 GMT

Chuck. I have had a set of Jerry’s rear dump headers on the dyno and they are middle of the road between a set of Hedmans that were tested and a set of fenderwells off of an old circle track engine. These were not tested on the dyno mule but instead on a reasonably hopped up and built Y. The plan is to eventually test all the exhaust systems that are available here on the same engine under the same conditions to help determine exactly what header designs are best suited for the particular engine combination being tested. I bring that up as a dead stock engine will not respond the same to exhaust tuning as a highly modified engine.[hr]

[quote][b]Y block Billy (3/13/2010)[/b][hr]Ted, On the rams horns, are you testing originals or John's, or is there any difference? [/quote]The Rams horn manifolds I have here are the originals and are a set that Charlie sent to me for testing. I’m currently having 2½” lead pipes mated to them for testing.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Y block Billy — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:57:37 GMT

Ted,

On the rams horns, are you testing originals or John's, or is there any difference? I am sure John must have some info for this question.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:12:22 GMT

A little more than $100.00.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

aussiebill — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:03:56 GMT

[quote][b]62galxe (3/13/2010)[/b][hr]This is the short truck headers from Reds headers. 1 1/2" tubes with crimped bends. My truck is gonna be a cruiser so these should be fine. Did not like the stock manifolds and did not have the money for ramshorn manifolds.

[IMG]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/62galxe/IMG_0417.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/62galxe/IMG_0418.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

I am curious what the price difference would have been between john,s rams horn headers and these? Thanks.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

62galxe — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:33:42 GMT

It could be possible. I have a trip to Dallas on the 16th returning on the18th.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:14:52 GMT

So, Kenny, you going to be using them any time soon? You're pretty close to Ted, right? Make it a day trip, throw some headers on the dyno, and be home soon after dark.:D

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

62galxe — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:36:21 GMT

This is the short truck headers from Reds headers. 1 1/2" tubes with crimped bends. My truck is gonna be a cruiser so these should be fine. Did not like the stock manifolds and did not have the money for ramshorn manifolds.

[IMG]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/62galxe/IMG_0417.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/62galxe/IMG_0418.jpg[/IMG]

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

MoonShadow — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:43:15 GMT

Ted,

Did you try a set of Jerry's rear dump headers? I'd like to know how they do on a Dyno. Chuck in NH

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Ted — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:36:32 GMT

Here’s a picture of the two tube Reds/Hedman headers that were initially being used on the 312 dyno engine. These were being used with 4 foot long 2” diameter lead pipes with no mufflers.

And here’s a picture of the headers that were worth an additional 22 horsepower with mufflers in place over the ones pictured above.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Ted — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:31:40 GMT

Charlie. If you can send the 1½” tube headers, I’ll include them on the test. Looks like testing both open and with headpipes would be the plan for those particular headers. 2½” headpipes would be the choice at this point.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:38:16 GMT

Charlie,
I think those will be perfect. The design is very similar.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

57FordPU — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:55:01 GMT

Charlie,

I have an extra set of Sanderson 1 1/2" plain steel headers. If they are what you are looking for, I would be happy to send them to Ted. These are the same kind I use on the race truck except we use ceramic coating. I doubt if these would work well on larger cu. in. engines, but the little 258" Y doesn't seem to mind. Jerry C has been trying to get me to change them for some time with no success (he especially hates the collectors), (what collectors?:P).

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:47:49 GMT

[quote][b]unibodyboy (3/8/2010)[/b][hr]Charlie,

I am quite happy with my Red's headers. While they aren't tuned length, they look to have very little restriction as well as fit my lowered pickup.[/quote]

Those are what I'm using. I suspect that the 1 1/2", non mandrel bent primaries leave something to be desired for performance. That's why I'd like for Ted to have a set (or some similar) to test. I had 2 options for manifolds/headers to send to Ted. I sent one. If I send the headers, then I will not be able to drive the truck until testing is finished and for my daily driver, that does not fly. I think all of the options out there for trucks leave something to be desired.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

MarkMontereyBay — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 13:00:59 GMT

After looking and reading and scratching my head... I ordered a set from Sanderson for my 57 Tbird. Not going to the dragstrip but want a better breathing motor and a good sound. Probably go with 2 1/4 exhaust and mufflers out the back tucked up under and turned down a little at the bumper. I have a set on my 65 Galaxie 352 with Flowmasters the same way. Sounds great.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Hoosier Hurricane — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:42:13 GMT

I forgot to mention in my previous post about tail pipes, I replaced the mufflers with 2" in and out turbo style mufflers.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

glrbird — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:39:41 GMT

Here is the item number for a set of fenderwell headers on ebay if any of you 57 ford owners are looking

320497055363 just over a day left

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

unibodyboy — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 08:10:14 GMT

Charlie,

I am quite happy with my Red's headers. While they aren't tuned length, they look to have very little restriction as well as fit my lowered pickup.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

Hoosier Hurricane — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 05:21:12 GMT

When I was racing my F engined Bird in pure stock, I started with stock manifolds and the stock 1 3/4 tailpipes. When I upgraded to 2 1/4 tailpipes, allowed by the rules, and retaining the original 2" headpipes, I picked up about .4 seconds and about 5 mph in the 1/4 mile. Your dyno guy knows of which he speaks.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

miker — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:46:08 GMT

I'll be watching this with a lot of interest, also. When I had the 'bird on the chassis dyno in '04, to set the jetting and timing, the engine hit the wall about 4800rpm. The dyno guy, who has enough experience to make a good guess looked at the 1 1/2 tailpipes and said "there's enough back pressure in there to run a turbine". It didn't like the 4 tubes J Mummert used to sell (still does?) would clear the R&P steering I'm using, so I never did anything about it. Recent post make it sound like they might, and the comments of late on the Red's headers lead me to believe just the tailpipes won't help. If you get some info, maybe I can re-do the exhaust and headers and see what it changes on a street motor in the car.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

rmk57 — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:16:24 GMT

This is what I built a few weeks ago. There made for a 57 model car. There 1.5" tube, bolt access, spark plug is very good. I had to shorten the collector a couple inches to run the exhaust above the cross member. The only tight spot is around the steering box,maybe 1/2 inch clearance.

RE: Header design for Y-blocks

charliemccraney — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:32:45 GMT

Say, does anyone have some 1 1/2" primary tube truck headers to send Ted's way?